So as to preempt the ones who practice Islamic sharia (law) as it pertains to "taquia," (lying), the nice sounding earlier verses in the Quran are superseded by the later verses according to sharia.
I am a muslim, from Algeria (not arab) and I would like to say that what Mohamed lived was under the conditions of his age and his environment. Islam is a set of principles, not a rigid code of livings. The slaves were "normal" and very well seen at that time, but now things are different, he had 9 wives and this was special only for him, the others could have 4, but still this is a conjunctural stuff, muslims are not obliged to have 4 wives nor 2, 1 is the normal situation in Islam.
hi all, i think u all have read the wrong QURAN and mohammed never said to beat ur wife The message of Islam was peaceful but I think like you did they also read the wrong Quran and started terrorism. Mohammed always said follow islam and let others follow what their religion is. Mohammed never said to convert into islam or beat your wife. Please read the write Quran.
@ VAS-- As u said 'Allah must be the dumbest God'. Mohammed always said from his muslims follow the write Islam and please respect all other religions.
'I leave you two things The Holy Quran and Ahlulbayt(Twelve Imams starting from Imam ALI which only SHIA Muslims follow).If u do not understand any thing from The QURAN see what the AHLULBAYT said' --Prophet Mohammed
I have heard there are "cleansed" versions of the Quran around. Apparently that's what you're looking at. Along with examples from the Hadith and the Sira, the Quran itself says in 4:34 a husband can and should beat his wife if she disobeys. Here are six translations of sura 4, verse 34:
1. "Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other, and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them. Virtuous women are obedient, careful, during the husband's absence, because God has of them been careful. But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, Great!" (Rodwell's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)
2. "Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surely God is high, supreme." (Dawood's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)
3. "Men are in charge of women, because Allah has made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah has guarded. As for those from whom you fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great." (Pickthall's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)
4. "Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; God is All high, All great." (Arberry's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)
5. "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great. (Shakir's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)
6. "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance) for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all). (Ali's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)
Ali's additions of words (in brackets) to the Quran is an effort to soften the harshness. The original does not say "lightly."
the life of Our prophet Muhammad (PBUH), IS an example for every Muslim to live.. and act like him, and to live like him.. to have interaction with other like him,, as no one in this world is so perfect that he/she do what Islam and Quran says,,but upto some point we can do this,, and we can implement Islam on our lives..
I am a Christian and I have never read the qur'an before but I think I am able to shed some light on some of the issues presented.
First and foremost the Bible and Qur'an are both very old religious texts originally written in different languages and in times where symbolism especially was more frequent and had more importance. And so when we look at religious texts we must always think of different factors that may influence a written peice, like what time period is this, is there a war going on, is there great sin with the Jewish/Islamic people at this time? Also I've come across people bashing parts in the bible where they read a sentence and they think it's a general representation of God's word for all time, when really it is based on a specific issue at a specific time.
Your video talked about how Mohammed had married young, and like you said it was a different time with very different values. On to the more important issue of wife beating; 4:34 seems to point out that if a women disobeys, disloyalty, are rebellious, or refractoriness, they may be and should be beaten. BUT if they obey you, then you should not beat them. So let's examine this. In our day and age "disobey" usually just means to not do something that someone has told you to do. But I think that back then the use of these words in the qu'ran were meant to describe sexual idolatry and other sexual sins. But we can't pin everything to sexual disobedience. Another focus of these words are to warn of spiritual rebellion. The husbands were also to help their wives from choosing their ways over God's. Now we look at beating. Do we know if "beat" was meant to be lightly or not? No, we do not, but we do have our own experiences to define what we think beating is. Personally I think any kind of physical hitting can be called beating, however that does not mean that every kind of physical hit there is is equivalent to the horrific acts that we fear. technically spanking your child is considered beating. I was spanked as a child and I am 17 now so that wasn't really a long time ago, and it was in the 2000 era. When I was 5-8 I would colour on the walls or I would scream at my dad and argue in "disobedience" and he would take out a wooden spoon and spank me. I was young and my father had to show me the consequence of my wrong possibly because I may have not understood or would not appreciate why what i did was wrong. Though feel my father could have been better about it, I still feel that it was not wrong that I was spanked. It is the same with beatings in those time. I'm not saying that all women were spanked but it does not mean that they were given the half dead beatings we here of. Now we go onto the last saying. Of how if your wife returns to obedience, then you must not beat her. This saying was actually presented a very radical idea at that time. At this time women were not thought of as persons, but objects, possessions, simple baby makers, they did not have many rights at all. Men were able to act like they owned women (just because the qur'an said men were superior does not mean that God thought of men as more important and women the equivalent of dogs). And because a man could act like he owned his wife, who's to say he can't punch his wife if she keeps having daughters, or beat her half to death cuz he's halving a horrible day and he needs a vent. What this last saying throws out to people, mainly men, is that they can only beat their wives when they have actually done some kind of sin (sexual idolatry, blatant disrespect, or spiritual rebellion), AND when that women has started to obey again, the qur'an says that the man MUST NOT beat her. This is very radical because it is saying that women are people, that they are worthy of respect, deserve rights, and are seen as important and are loved by God.
Michelle you wrote that you think beating women is right.
And then you made an excuse about how it is right because of some fictional reason you chose. Actually the reasons you said are not correct anyway. The reasons for beating a woman who disobeys in islam can be for the wife not wanting to have sex with the husband when he wants, as a wife is obliged to do in islam. Or for disagreeing with him on any little thing. Or for argueing or criticising and having her own mind or opinions. Do you think a woman has no equality to have her own mind and thoughts, or to refuse sex, or to stand up for herself and her rights and her life if the man is not being nice or considerate?
Only muslims say the things you say, or support islam. So it doesn't surprise me that a muslim can say anything which is untrue, without any conscience about lying. You are not a christian. You are either a muslim or a muslim wannabe.
Noone is going to clean the image of Islam, the quran, sharia, or mohamed.
Islam is a lie. The only people who protect islam are in denial. And people who try to teach or spread islam to others are the greatest liars, and they know that they are lying, but they have no conscience about lying to people.
The people who find out they have been lied to, are so shocked and angry that someone had no conscience in telling these lies, and are damaged by it, so that they are very careful not to trust people again who lie and have no conscience. And they warn others about these people who are without a conscience, who will lie and manipulate people. And they help to tell people the truth about islam, and there are so many people who know the truth about the bad of islam, and denial of people who want to protect it, and the lies of people who want to make people convert to it.
The more people try to teach islam to others. The more people learn the truth about the bad of Islam.
And the more people who convert to islam. The more they show the truth of the bad islam to the people around them. And those people around them are prepared and learn the bad of islam, because you learn it from any muslim who does not keep his religion to himself and who wishes to spread it. And so the people around them are immunised from the lie of islam.
And so the more people Islam reaches, the more that an even greater number of people are immunised from the lie of islam. And learn the truth and go against islam, spreading their own values of human rights and good, which are contrary to islam. So that they immunise more people from the lie of islam.
And even muslims learn the truth slowly about the bad of islam, and the lie that they have been told by people with no conscience. And so muslims too leave and talk about the truth of the bad of islam.
And most converts leave within a few years too, and they too are then disappointed and hurt and angry about the lie they were told, and they share the truth of the bad of islam, and the people who lie without conscience to try and spread islam.
Islam is becoming more known. And more people are leaving it.
As Mohamed said: "People joined islam in crowds, and they will leave islam in crowds." That is the one true thing he said, and it was against his own lie.
That when people know the truth about islam, they will leave.
And this is the truth about lies. When people find out it is a lie, noone will believe in it anymore. And so they will leave.
So as to preempt the ones who practice Islamic sharia (law) as it pertains to "taquia," (lying), the nice sounding earlier verses in the Quran are superseded by the later verses according to sharia.
ReplyDeleteGood point. For those unfamiliar with this, the superceding is called "abrogation." People can learn more about it here: Definition of Abrogation.
ReplyDeleteI am a muslim, from Algeria (not arab) and I would like to say that what Mohamed lived was under the conditions of his age and his environment. Islam is a set of principles, not a rigid code of livings. The slaves were "normal" and very well seen at that time, but now things are different, he had 9 wives and this was special only for him, the others could have 4, but still this is a conjunctural stuff, muslims are not obliged to have 4 wives nor 2, 1 is the normal situation in Islam.
ReplyDeleteWhat is the exact claim of Muslims on Mohammad? What does Allah say in Koran?
ReplyDeleteHe was a perfect example to follow and to imitate for all man kind. He was the best human being for all time in every sense including morality.
Now what is so called Muslim from Algeria saying?
The moment you mention some of his (Mohammad's) deeds his absolutely immaculate character becomes relative.
Then how come Allah said he is an example to be followed by all generations?
Allah must be the dumbest God.
hi all,
ReplyDeletei think u all have read the wrong QURAN and mohammed never said to beat ur wife
The message of Islam was peaceful but I think like you did they also read the wrong Quran and started terrorism. Mohammed always said follow islam and let others follow what their religion is. Mohammed never said to convert into islam or beat your wife. Please read the write Quran.
@ VAS-- As u said 'Allah must be the dumbest God'.
Mohammed always said from his muslims follow the write Islam and please respect all other religions.
'I leave you two things The Holy Quran and Ahlulbayt(Twelve Imams starting from Imam ALI which only SHIA Muslims follow).If u do not understand any thing from The QURAN see what the AHLULBAYT said'
--Prophet Mohammed
Hi Mehdi,
ReplyDeleteI have heard there are "cleansed" versions of the Quran around. Apparently that's what you're looking at. Along with examples from the Hadith and the Sira, the Quran itself says in 4:34 a husband can and should beat his wife if she disobeys. Here are six translations of sura 4, verse 34:
1. "Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other, and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them. Virtuous women are obedient, careful, during the husband's absence, because God has of them been careful. But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, Great!" (Rodwell's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)
2. "Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surely God is high, supreme." (Dawood's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)
3. "Men are in charge of women, because Allah has made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah has guarded. As for those from whom you fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great." (Pickthall's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)
4. "Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; God is All high, All great." (Arberry's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)
5. "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great. (Shakir's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)
6. "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance) for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all). (Ali's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)
Ali's additions of words (in brackets) to the Quran is an effort to soften the harshness. The original does not say "lightly."
Perhaps its time we see the Quran translated by female scholars given that we are all to some extent conditioned by our experiences.
ReplyDeletethe life of Our prophet Muhammad (PBUH), IS an example for every Muslim to live.. and act like him, and to live like him.. to have interaction with other like him,, as no one in this world is so perfect that he/she do what Islam and Quran says,,but upto some point we can do this,, and we can implement Islam on our lives..
ReplyDeleteIslams most perfect man was a child molesting wife beater? Well yes, yes he was the Quran says so.....now Taquia your your way out of that.
ReplyDeleteI am a Christian and I have never read the qur'an before but I think I am able to shed some light on some of the issues presented.
ReplyDeleteFirst and foremost the Bible and Qur'an are both very old religious texts originally written in different languages and in times where symbolism especially was more frequent and had more importance. And so when we look at religious texts we must always think of different factors that may influence a written peice, like what time period is this, is there a war going on, is there great sin with the Jewish/Islamic people at this time? Also I've come across people bashing parts in the bible where they read a sentence and they think it's a general representation of God's word for all time, when really it is based on a specific issue at a specific time.
Your video talked about how Mohammed had married young, and like you said it was a different time with very different values. On to the more important issue of wife beating; 4:34 seems to point out that if a women disobeys, disloyalty, are rebellious, or refractoriness, they may be and should be beaten. BUT if they obey you, then you should not beat them. So let's examine this. In our day and age "disobey" usually just means to not do something that someone has told you to do. But I think that back then the use of these words in the qu'ran were meant to describe sexual idolatry and other sexual sins. But we can't pin everything to sexual disobedience. Another focus of these words are to warn of spiritual rebellion. The husbands were also to help their wives from choosing their ways over God's.
Now we look at beating. Do we know if "beat" was meant to be lightly or not? No, we do not, but we do have our own experiences to define what we think beating is. Personally I think any kind of physical hitting can be called beating, however that does not mean that every kind of physical hit there is is equivalent to the horrific acts that we fear. technically spanking your child is considered beating. I was spanked as a child and I am 17 now so that wasn't really a long time ago, and it was in the 2000 era. When I was 5-8 I would colour on the walls or I would scream at my dad and argue in "disobedience" and he would take out a wooden spoon and spank me. I was young and my father had to show me the consequence of my wrong possibly because I may have not understood or would not appreciate why what i did was wrong. Though feel my father could have been better about it, I still feel that it was not wrong that I was spanked. It is the same with beatings in those time. I'm not saying that all women were spanked but it does not mean that they were given the half dead beatings we here of.
Now we go onto the last saying. Of how if your wife returns to obedience, then you must not beat her. This saying was actually presented a very radical idea at that time. At this time women were not thought of as persons, but objects, possessions, simple baby makers, they did not have many rights at all. Men were able to act like they owned women (just because the qur'an said men were superior does not mean that God thought of men as more important and women the equivalent of dogs). And because a man could act like he owned his wife, who's to say he can't punch his wife if she keeps having daughters, or beat her half to death cuz he's halving a horrible day and he needs a vent. What this last saying throws out to people, mainly men, is that they can only beat their wives when they have actually done some kind of sin (sexual idolatry, blatant disrespect, or spiritual rebellion), AND when that women has started to obey again, the qur'an says that the man MUST NOT beat her. This is very radical because it is saying that women are people, that they are worthy of respect, deserve rights, and are seen as important and are loved by God.
Michelle you wrote that you think beating women is right.
ReplyDeleteAnd then you made an excuse about how it is right because of some fictional reason you chose.
Actually the reasons you said are not correct anyway.
The reasons for beating a woman who disobeys in islam can be for the wife not wanting to have sex with the husband when he wants, as a wife is obliged to do in islam.
Or for disagreeing with him on any little thing.
Or for argueing or criticising and having her own mind or opinions.
Do you think a woman has no equality to have her own mind and thoughts, or to refuse sex, or to stand up for herself and her rights and her life if the man is not being nice or considerate?
Only muslims say the things you say, or support islam.
So it doesn't surprise me that a muslim can say anything which is untrue, without any conscience about lying.
You are not a christian. You are either a muslim or a muslim wannabe.
Noone is going to clean the image of Islam, the quran, sharia, or mohamed.
Islam is a lie.
The only people who protect islam are in denial.
And people who try to teach or spread islam to others are the greatest liars, and they know that they are lying, but they have no conscience about lying to people.
The people who find out they have been lied to, are so shocked and angry that someone had no conscience in telling these lies, and are damaged by it, so that they are very careful not to trust people again who lie and have no conscience. And they warn others about these people who are without a conscience, who will lie and manipulate people.
And they help to tell people the truth about islam, and there are so many people who know the truth about the bad of islam, and denial of people who want to protect it, and the lies of people who want to make people convert to it.
The more people try to teach islam to others. The more people learn the truth about the bad of Islam.
And the more people who convert to islam. The more they show the truth of the bad islam to the people around them. And those people around them are prepared and learn the bad of islam, because you learn it from any muslim who does not keep his religion to himself and who wishes to spread it.
And so the people around them are immunised from the lie of islam.
And so the more people Islam reaches, the more that an even greater number of people are immunised from the lie of islam. And learn the truth and go against islam, spreading their own values of human rights and good, which are contrary to islam.
So that they immunise more people from the lie of islam.
And even muslims learn the truth slowly about the bad of islam, and the lie that they have been told by people with no conscience. And so muslims too leave and talk about the truth of the bad of islam.
And most converts leave within a few years too, and they too are then disappointed and hurt and angry about the lie they were told, and they share the truth of the bad of islam, and the people who lie without conscience to try and spread islam.
Islam is becoming more known. And more people are leaving it.
As Mohamed said: "People joined islam in crowds, and they will leave islam in crowds."
That is the one true thing he said, and it was against his own lie.
That when people know the truth about islam, they will leave.
And this is the truth about lies. When people find out it is a lie, noone will believe in it anymore. And so they will leave.